RaxSki from Austria, the most controversial ski

[TomFromAustria2011]

...Since an ordinary ski does not have any pivoting arm,... You simply have no toreque in the knee unless you take a fall ...And if you claim that you do, then you'd better add a reference, because I simply don't believe that.

If you were right, Vattendroppe, how could you explain scores of knie injuries (ligament ruptures)
with "ordinary" carving skis? All these were caused by sudden torque that simply tore ligaments.

Well I understand that you do'nt believe the RaxSki could be better for your knies.
No reference will help you unless you get your own experience with this new ski category.

 

[TomFromAustria2011]

Wait...all riding is done in the backseat?? Oh-oooh....that doesnt seem safe at all to me!

No, on piste you use the same position as with any shaped carving ski. In very steep couloir you stand upright over you ski (but the ski is NOT parallel to the slope).

But if you are riding over old avalanches or tracked heaps you MUST lift your ski tips - whatever ski you are just riding on.

The rule of thumb is: the more you trust the snow surface in front of you the less you lift the ski tips.

 

[RandoScando]

If you were right, Vattendroppe, how could you explain scores of knie injuries (ligament ruptures) with "ordinary" carving skis? All these were caused by sudden torque that simply tore ligaments.

Well I understand that you do'nt believe the RaxSki could be better for your knies.
No reference will help you unless you get your own experience with this new ski category.

As I said, if you take a fall (or have an accident of another kind) you might very well hurt you knees, but I guess that applies to your product as well? Or will it magically protect you against injuries as well?

And yeah, to refuse to back your claims up with references isn't the wisest idea if you want to give us an impression of being a serious company. Currently you're being about as credible as the following statement. "I skied a new ski with this awesome thing called rocker. With rocker getting injured while skiing is absolutely impossible, even injuries that have nothing to do with your skiing is prevented! On top of that it rolls like a 13 m racecarver in piste, and out of bounds it floats like a 130 mm pure powder ski! Amazing!!111"

And by the way, the correct spelling is "knee"...

 

[Johan686]

Well this sure is fun...

I would like to make two statements. One in favor and one against.

Against:
Seems to me like the most solid argument against this product is not the theory that is laid out in the discussion about physics and what have you. The thing that seems to me to prove that the RaxSki is not "all the hype" is that the riders using RaxSki most of the time look like drunk Danes who are about to crap their pants. And that is just about all the empirical evidence there is to go on... or no?

In favor:
Skiing is about feeling. Right? and the feeling you might be looking for probably differs a lot from skier to skier. Perhaps in Austria they like that feeling of crazy skiing that snowblades will give you, and the RaxSki probably gives you more control while doing it.. A lot of weird movements of the hips seem to be involved when skiing the RaxSki, and perhaps that gives some people a good feeling.

In conclusion: Looks like shit for skiers who want to ski big and fast and knows how to ski. But may be a fun product for those who want to tippytoe around the mountain/piste and doesn't know any better.. As a commercial product weirder things have made people rich in the past, so perhaps it will sell... but not looking like this..

Question: Why does he (tomtomaustria or whatever) spend so much time on forums hyping this? Its a lost cause if ever I've seen one...

Peace!

 

[PNyberg]

Wait...all riding is done in the backseat?? Oh-oooh....that doesnt seem safe at all to me!

No, on piste you use the same position as with any shaped carving ski. In very steep couloir you stand upright over you ski (but the ski is NOT parallel to the slope).

But if you are riding over old avalanches or tracked heaps you MUST lift your ski tips - whatever ski you are just riding on.

The rule of thumb is: the more you trust the snow surface in front of you the less you lift the ski tips.

http://members.aon.at/edvsyste/P1040699_web.jpg

Ok..but riding offpist still looks like you have to ski more in the backseat then on a regular ski? And what about falling and getting chopped in the leg by one of the fins?

 

[TomFromAustria2011]

1) As I said, if you take a fall (or have an accident of another kind) you might very well hurt you knees, but I guess that applies to your product as well?...

2) ...to refuse ...references ...
3) "I skied a new ski with this awesome thing called rocker. With rocker getting injured while skiing is absolutely impossible,..."

1) Vattendroppe, I was talking about knee ligament ruptures WITHOUT falli ! Like Benni Raich's accident in Garmisch-Partenkirchen on Feb 16. An eventual fall would save his knees! Accidents like this are 100% caused by shaped edges.

2) I guess I have already cited references like US test report
Your text to link here...
UK report
Your text to link here...
and the Austrian report
Your text to link here...

3) You are right, this statement does not reflect the reality! You can get injured everywhere.
But statistics and probabilities of injury are real.

 

[RandoScando]

1) Vattendroppe, I was talking about knee ligament ruptures WITHOUT falli ! Like Benni Raich's accident in Garmisch-Partenkirchen on Feb 16. An eventual fall would save his knees! Accidents like this are 100% caused by shaped edges.

Yes, I know that. What I say is that without falling/having some kind of minor accident or skiing with a bad technique there's really no risk of having knee injuries at all normal skis. On the contrary, your product till introduce a constant stress into the knee, because of the mechanics built in to your construction.

2) I guess I have already cited references like US test report
Your text to link here...
UK report
Your text to link here...
and the Austrian report
Your text to link here...

Which one of these 'references' are supposed to be a credible reference implying that there's a great chance of knee injury while skiing ordinary skis with good technique?

3) You are right, this statement does not reflect the reality! You can get injured everywhere.
But statistics and probabilities of injury are real.

Of course, that's obvious.

 

[TomFromAustria2011]

...you have to ski more in the backseat then on a regular ski? And what about falling and getting chopped in the leg by one of the fins?

Tell me, what is "backseat" ? Something the beginners do ? Or the extreme carving with your hip nearly touching the snow ? The latter is very "trendy" though your weight is more backwards than with any RaxSki.
"Jet turns" accelerated by "jetting" the skis forward and at the same time transfering the weight backward.

The new direction control of RaxSki (=rear fins) can only be activated by transfering the weight to the right, to the left or backwards.
You do that GRADUALLY, depending on the conditions. The faster the turn, the rougher the snow surface, the hugher you lift the ski tips (=the more pressure on rear fins).

Well, the fins are not as sharp as butcher's axe nor as surgeon's scalpel ! They are like ship keels
No "chopping of legs" has been reported since the invention of RaxSki 5 years ago.

 

[TomFromAustria2011]

...What I say is that without falling/having some kind of minor accident or skiing with a bad technique there's really no risk of having knee injuries at all normal skis....

Austrian former world champion Benni Raich had neither a fall nor a bad technique on that day.
I know it is not easy to realize that.

Imagine the shaped carving ski&style as if you had two narrow boats under your feet.
Each boat has its rudder located at the front part instead at the boat's stern.

Can you manoeuvre such a boat? Yes. of course, but you must be very careful when waves come.

 

[FF]

1. Is there some way to try these things out? Any test-day soon in the alps??

2. Do you have a powder model??

(apologies if these questions already have been answered)

 

[RandoScando]

Austrian former world champion Benni Raich had neither a fall nor a bad technique on that day.
I know it is not easy to realize that.

I don't want similes, i want flat facts. Wikipedia says nothing about a Benni Raich having a knee injury, so to use that as a reference if you do not also send some kind of link to back it all up is just as much BS as everything you have said up until now.

 

[rabbit]

Wikipedia says nothing about a Benni Raich having a knee injury

Nu är det väl ändå så att wikipedia är inte särskilt tillförlitlig, även om det blivit bättre, och vill man vara seriös i sitt informationsinhämtande så är det klokt att inte avsluta sökningen där.

Från Benni Raich's hemsida (http://www.raich.at/benni_raich/news.html):
Mittwoch, 16.02.2011

Leider ist die WM für Benni ganz und gar nicht nach Wunsch verlaufen. Nach den Plätzen 5 im SuperG und 4 in der Super Kombi erreichte uns heute leider die schlechte Nachricht über den Kreuzbandriß. Benni wurde noch am Nachmittag im Sanatorium Kettenbrücke in Innsbruck operiert und wird dort noch ein paar Tage verbringen. Nach dem ersten Schock blickt er jetzt schon wieder etwas positiver in Richtung der bevorstehenden Therapie!

Gute Besserung Benni!


eller som Axel Lund Svindal säger i sin blogg:
Good doctors and MRI and CT scans. I wasn't the only racer that had been there.(hospital in Garmisch, min edit)
I saw both Benni Raich and Didier Cuche. Cuche will fix his hand and be ok. And Benni's knee will also be ok, but those things usually take 6 months. Sorry for him. That's just unlucky to blow out your knee on something like that. Wasn't even a crash. But I'm sure we'll see him in Sölden at the world cup opening next year ready to fight for the win. As for me I will take some time off and see how it develops. And of course keep you updated.

Mer officiell information om Raich's skada finns givetvis på FIS och Garmisch-VM''s officiella sidor samt Österrikisk press.

När åkare som Benni Raich skadar sig stödjer detta slutsatsen att hårt ställda bindningar vid tävlingsverksamhet inte fyller en säkerhetsfunktion utan en prestandafunktion.

Sen anser även jag att RAX är en farlig och dum konstruktion

Personligen tror jag, fortfarande, att Tom from Austria och RAX bara är mänsklighetens första kontakt med ett forum-troll som skenar ur kontroll, får eget liv och sedan, som alla nyfödda, ligger och skriker efter uppmärksamhet.

"Tom of Finland", någon?
http://www.google.com/images?q=tom+...ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1107&bih=679

obs! länken är inte barn/jobb/under-18 etc säker.

 

[RandoScando]

Nu är det väl ändå så att wikipedia är inte särskilt tillförlitlig, även om det blivit bättre, och vill man vara seriös i sitt informationsinhämtande så är det klokt att inte avsluta sökningen där.

Personligen tycker jag att jag är ovanligt snäll som faktiskt gjorde ett (tamt) försök att leta reda på källor åt honom Jag menar, vill man vara seriös i sitt argumenterande så är det klokt att inte låta det vara upp till andra att försöka hitta källorna för sina påståenden.

 

[nilshannes2]

i really truthfully sort of like the design on these ones.

För övrigt.... Fyfaaan för transportsträckor på sånadäringa.... måste vara helvetet på jorden.

 

[PNyberg]

...you have to ski more in the backseat then on a regular ski? And what about falling and getting chopped in the leg by one of the fins?

Tell me, what is "backseat" ? Something the beginners do ? Or the extreme carving with your hip nearly touching the snow ? The latter is very "trendy" though your weight is more backwards than with any RaxSki.
"Jet turns" accelerated by "jetting" the skis forward and at the same time transfering the weight backward.

The new direction control of RaxSki (=rear fins) can only be activated by transfering the weight to the right, to the left or backwards.
You do that GRADUALLY, depending on the conditions. The faster the turn, the rougher the snow surface, the hugher you lift the ski tips (=the more pressure on rear fins).

Well, the fins are not as sharp as butcher's axe nor as surgeon's scalpel ! They are like ship keels
No "chopping of legs" has been reported since the invention of RaxSki 5 years ago.

With backseat i mean not leaning forward on your skis aka something that beginners do. I am talking about freeriding now...and yes I know about "jet turns". But sincemost of this forum is park and freerid specifik (more or less) then we dont really care about anything else then how the ski handles in offpist conditions and it feels that you have been avoiding some questions there?

 

[AdamClaeson]

...
In Sweden, probably a third of the population skis. That means about 3 million skiers.

And this is "only" in Sweden. Compared with this, feels a study of 1,000 riders rather trifling ...

Wont you say?

I will say following: The snowboard once started with 10 riders.

That's actually not quite true. Snowboard started with one rider...

 

[AdamClaeson]

Like many in this forum, I simply not think it's a good and fun product. It dosen't look fun to ski with... It seems to hamper ski developments, rather than fostering it. And that just feels wrong!!! Sorry, but that's the way i feel. Feel free to convinse me... Ops, that's what you are trying to do...

To judge by the moves of the skiers on your website it seems that even riding style will be completely crazy and it all feels very very wobbly. But maybe it becomes a fly (as we say in Sweden) and you may eveb earn some bucks.

But if you think you will get over the great mass of skiers, if you think this will be a "new product" on the ski market (type snowboarding and skis of all kind) you probably just fooling yourself. BUT stranger things have happened...

A bleach tips to finish. Add a little more money to make stunning movies and create more image around the company (unfortunately, feels like an impossible task).

When I think Raxski I think of the 80's in colorful suits And zink paste. Why is it so?

Can you answer that maybe you can change your image ...

 

[AdamClaeson]

....because we found no ski turning fast enough
nor tracking well enough in all snow and terrain conditions....


Try my S3, they are superfast to turn with!!! They also are superdupergood in all conditions!

Another question. How is sexappeal for the rider of this ski. Wil hardly be picked up on the hill ...

 

[Hasse_Lindborg]

...
In Sweden, probably a third of the population skis. That means about 3 million skiers.

And this is "only" in Sweden. Compared with this, feels a study of 1,000 riders rather trifling ...

Wont you say?

I will say following: The snowboard once started with 10 riders.

That's actually not quite true. Snowboard started with one rider...

Jaså? Vem startade snowboardvågen då? Det var väl flera olika som kom på det ungefär samtidigt om jag inte har helt fel. Jake Burton, Tom Sims med flera.

 

[coastmtn]

I will say following: The snowboard once started with 10 riders.

That's actually not quite true. Snowboard started with one rider...

Jaså? Vem startade snowboardvågen då? Det var väl flera olika som kom på det ungefär samtidigt om jag inte har helt fel. Jake Burton, Tom Sims med flera.

Det var väl Sherman Poppen?

 

[TomFromAustria2011]

1. Is there some way to try these things out? Any test-day soon in the alps??

2. Do you have a powder model??

(apologies if these questions already have been answered)

Yes, we are regularly announcing our tests in Austria on www.raxski.com.
From now on there are 10 pairs of RaxSki to rent in Scotland.
There are RaxSkis in USA, France, Italy, Germany, Australia and in Pamir (Kirgizstan).
We hope that we will deliver RaxSkis to Sweden soon.

The standard wide model Skater is OK for powder.
The Surfer "Obama" is better for higher speeds.
If you are an excellent freerider, you may find this "water ski" a challenge for powder and slush.

 

[TomFromAustria2011]

....because we found no ski turning fast enough
nor tracking well enough in all snow and terrain conditions....


Try my S3, they are superfast to turn with!!! They also are superdupergood in all conditions!

Another question. How is sexappeal for the rider of this ski. Wil hardly be picked up on the hill ...

Would like to race down steeps with you! Just to compare.

Sexappeal ? We are trying to shape our models as attractive as possible

 

[TomFromAustria2011]

Like many in this forum, I simply not think it's a good and fun product. It dosen't look fun to ski with... Feel free to convinse me... .

Adam, there is just one possibility to convince you
- to try the RaxSki yourself

Tom

 

[AdamClaeson]

That's actually not quite true. Snowboard started with one rider...

Jaså? Vem startade snowboardvågen då? Det var väl flera olika som kom på det ungefär samtidigt om jag inte har helt fel. Jake Burton, Tom Sims med flera.

Det var väl Sherman Poppen?

Sherman Poppen uppfann Snurfen - föregångaren till själva snowboarden, men det var Jake Burton (Carpenter) som uppfann själva snowboarden - den vi idag åker på.

Tom Sims var också med i utvecklandet av snowboarden. Men det var som sagt Jake Burton som uppfann själva snowboarden...

 

[AdamClaeson]

Like many in this forum, I simply not think it's a good and fun product. It dosen't look fun to ski with... Feel free to convinse me... .

Adam, there is just one possibility to convince you
- to try the RaxSki yourself

Tom

Send me a piar, couse i will never ever buy a pair, or rent...

 

[AdamClaeson]

Would like to race down steeps with you! Just to compare.

Yeah, that would be a lot of fun. I you start i wait for you at the end of the slope...

 

[TomFromAustria2011]

Would like to race down steeps with you! Just to compare.

Yeah, that would be a lot of fun. If you start i wait for you at the end of the slope...

No, Adam, you should not wait at the end of the slope!
You should rather start with me.
Hope you will enjoy terrain like this one

 

[Perkal]

Would like to race down steeps with you! Just to compare.

Yeah, that would be a lot of fun. If you start i wait for you at the end of the slope...

No, Adam, you should not wait at the end of the slope!
You should rather start with me.
Hope you will enjoy terrain like this one

http://members.aon.at/edvsyste/SNV80683_folder.jpg

WHERE DID YOU GET THOOSE POLES?!

 

[AdamClaeson]

hehe, you asked me in a way that I would not dare to go down slopes like the one on the image. The difference between you and me is that I do it in "real" ski, and you (or who it is in the picture) do it in boots with fins and ski tips. See the difference?

Just to clarify, yes I would love to ski steeps as the one in the picture. Hope it is long to! To go down a slope at 60 degrees inclination is not any problem. Making it a longer distance requires a bit more. AND to do so with the extreme position (read toiletposition) as the guy on picture you must have insane thigh muscles...

But I will not work against you anymore. To be honest as I think it is good that there are creative people trying. If I then like the product is another question. Honestly, it feels a bit dangerous. A development of snowblades, and how fun is that?

And again, you can not have movies and photos on your webbsite as you have today. Men in late middle age who go shirtless dressed in moguls-pants ARE NOT good for your image.

ok, just for a science test, where can i test a pair? As i said, i will not buy a pair or rent. But i´m willing to try a pair just for your perseverance...

 

[Tompan14]

I would love to see a movie clip of a Raxskier going down something as steep as those photos.

 

[AdamClaeson]

I would love to see a movie clip of a Raxskier going down something as steep as those photos.

Yeah! Me to!!!

 

[R00bert]

There, I fixed it.

 

[Andreas80]

Var det inte nån som försökte sälja pjäxor man kunde åka på för några år sedan?
Men det roligaste är nog alla kommentarer från skidåkartalibaner hur lätt ni verka känna er hotade bara för att det kommer en ny produkt som eventuellt skulle funka bättre än många skidor folk använder idag i svenska skitbackar. Men visst ett par feting skidor ser ju coolare ut.

 

[AdamClaeson]

Var det inte nån som försökte sälja pjäxor man kunde åka på för några år sedan?
Men det roligaste är nog alla kommentarer från skidåkartalibaner hur lätt ni verka känna er hotade bara för att det kommer en ny produkt som eventuellt skulle funka bättre än många skidor folk använder idag i svenska skitbackar. Men visst ett par feting skidor ser ju coolare ut.

Känner mig inte ett dugg hotad... Varför skulle jag känna mig hotad? För vad?

Diskussionen handlar väl snarare huruvida Skirax är en bra produkt eller inte. Den stora skaran tycks ju inte vara direkt imponerade medan Tom hävdar att man både skulle få roligare i backen och åka i svårare terräng. Vad Tom dock inte tycks ha förstått är att 90% av folket här på FR i huvudsak åker Off-pist eller park och då handlar det mycket om känslan i backen. Eller hur?

Personligen har jag svårt att så hur skidan skulle göra att jag skulle få roligare på berget plus att den känns näst intill farlig att åka på - om man skall åka så som Tom säger att man kan... Därför för jag diskussionen mot honom - är ju intressant att se vad har har för USPAR på sin produkt.

Stämmer för övrigt med pjäxan... Såg sjuk ut! Ingen direkt genomslagskraft där heller. Vad tror du själv om Raxski?

Och ja, ett par fetingar ser betydligt coolare ut...

 

[dr-telemark]

...I was talking about knee ligament ruptures WITHOUT falli ! Like Benni Raich's accident in Garmisch-Partenkirchen on Feb 16. An eventual fall would save his knees! Accidents like this are 100% caused by shaped edges.But statistics and probabilities of injury are real.

Dear Tom.
I should start by saying that I'm an orthopaedic surgeon. I frequently work as an on-piste doctor at ski resorts and I have seen a fair amount of knee injuries. I have probably read more articles on the subject than you have, too. But that's just a guess... The next time you refer to statistics and probabilities of injury maybe you should consider providing a reference to that, and not references to something else.

I guess that your statement makes sense since close to 100% of all skis and snowboards have shaped edges. That's a cute, backwards way of fabricating a fact. I understand that you think your product is the best thing since sliced bread but please stop making things up. You obviously have no knowledge of biomechanichal mechanisms of the knee or the pathogenesis of knee injuries. I could enlighten you, but I just can't be bothered...

Here are some quotes from the links you provide that greatly increase risk of ANY injury:

" As we descend down a red run my feet start to wiggle from side to side independently. Instead of edging and angulating it was possible just make a turn by twisting flat feet."

Unstable, wiggling feet at speed? Twisting your feet in another direction then you're travelling? With fins attached? Spiral tib/fib fracture or serious knee injury waiting to happen...

"The drag slowed things down a bit and I was having fun until my ski caught something underneath and I was out of the binding"

Catching something under the snow and making a faceplant - safe?

PS
I love the fact that you had a Scotsman to review skis. Hardcore ;-)

You're thinking out of the box for sure. Unfortunately, not all inventions are good inventions:
http://www.weirdpalace.com/stupid-inventions/

 

[AdamClaeson]

 

[AdamClaeson]

...I was talking about knee ligament ruptures WITHOUT falli ! Like Benni Raich's accident in Garmisch-Partenkirchen on Feb 16. An eventual fall would save his knees! Accidents like this are 100% caused by shaped edges.But statistics and probabilities of injury are real.

Dear Tom.
I should start by saying that I'm an orthopaedic surgeon. I frequently work as an on-piste doctor at ski resorts and I have seen a fair amount of knee injuries. I have probably read more articles on the subject than you have, too. But that's just a guess... The next time you refer to statistics and probabilities of injury maybe you should consider providing a reference to that, and not references to something else.

I guess that your statement makes sense since close to 100% of all skis and snowboards have shaped edges. That's a cute, backwards way of fabricating a fact. I understand that you think your product is the best thing since sliced bread but please stop making things up. You obviously have no knowledge of biomechanichal mechanisms of the knee or the pathogenesis of knee injuries. I could enlighten you, but I just can't be bothered...

Here are some quotes from the links you provide that greatly increase risk of ANY injury:

" As we descend down a red run my feet start to wiggle from side to side independently. Instead of edging and angulating it was possible just make a turn by twisting flat feet."

Unstable, wiggling feet at speed? Twisting your feet in another direction then you're travelling? With fins attached? Spiral tib/fib fracture or serious knee injury waiting to happen...

"The drag slowed things down a bit and I was having fun until my ski caught something underneath and I was out of the binding"

Catching something under the snow and making a faceplant - safe?

PS
I love the fact that you had a Scotsman to review skis. Hardcore ;-)

You're thinking out of the box for sure. Unfortunately, not all inventions are good inventions:
http://www.weirdpalace.com/stupid-inventions/

Finally.

 

[dr-telemark]

Oh, I almost forgot...

If a fall would have saved him from knee damage, I guess it's just too bad that Benni Raich isn't a Rax skier...

 

[TomFromAustria2011]

Dear Tom.
1) I should start by saying that I\'m an orthopaedic surgeon. ... You obviously have no knowledge of biomechanichal mechanisms of the knee or the pathogenesis of knee injuries...

2) Catching something under the snow and making a faceplant - safe?

3)...not all inventions are good inventions...

1) I appreciate your profesional knowledge, DrTelemark.
I would never dare to explain biomechanichal mechanisms.
My son-in-law has the same profession as you. He is also very sceptical - to ALL kind of alpine skiing, especially skiing on piste.
As far as RaxSki is concerned you should be very honest and say: I HAVE NO EXPERIENCE WITH THIS GEAR.

2) \"Catching something under the snow\" is my profession, DrTelemark. I have a degree in physics and 5 years
experience with RaSki.
Let me explain it shortly: Rax fins cannot work as a hook as their lower edges are nearly parallel to slope.
It means that \"submerged hindrance\" could never stop or even harass the Rax skier.
Sometimes the ski tail would be kicked up but this torque is absorbed by ski tips dashing on the snow
surface. Skier can continue without eating the snow.

3) Is anybody saying that the shaped carvers were a good invention ? After all, 100% of your patients got injured while skiing on regular skis like carvers, twin tips or all-mountain.

 

[RandoScando]

2) \"Catching something under the snow\" is my profession, DrTelemark. I have a degree in physics and 5 years
experience with RaSki.
Let me explain it shortly: Rax fins cannot work as a hook as their lower edges are nearly parallel to slope.
It means that \"submerged hindrance\" could never stop or even harass the Rax skier.
Sometimes the ski tail would be kicked up but this torque is absorbed by ski tips dashing on the snow
surface. Skier can continue without eating the snow.

3) Is anybody saying that the shaped carvers were a good invention ? After all, 100% of your patients got injured while skiing on regular skis like carvers, twin tips or all-mountain.

Oh my... You saying this makes me highly doubt that your degree isn't a phony...